Bots first is no way to play

Game of universal domination. New dice available free upon request.
User avatar
magpie
Goat Avenger
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Riding with the League of Extraordinary Anti Goatfecking Gentlemen ...

Post by magpie » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:50 am

yep i blame SET too, it's all his fault.





:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:









hehehehe dam that drunk bastard and shock was cool too...still is actaully...where is the old fart??

User avatar
Blind Willie
Lux Veteran
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 3:06 am
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Blind Willie » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:54 am

Weed wrote:I miss the good old days.
Ah...the good old days...

Remember when we didn't have real bots and dustin used to wrap himself up in tin foil and make beeping noises at us?

Maybe that's why he hates bots first...

User avatar
vonibot
Lux Addict
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:07 pm
Location: the semi-holy ministry of semi-retirement

Re: Bots first is no way to play

Post by vonibot » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:04 am

dustin wrote:Bots first is racist against non-humans.
First, Bots are code, they are not capable of being a "race". Attributing bots with human characteristics (like the ability to experience discrimination) only undermines the human experience.

Second, the Bots First Doctrine is, as always, about etiquette. Bots First simply states that humans should treat humans with respect, even within the competitive framework of Lux.

Last: yes, this topic particular is four months old. I apologize for the delay but my retirement benefits do not cover RSS feeds.[/b]

User avatar
dustin
Lux Creator
Lux Creator
Posts: 10998
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 2:01 am
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Post by dustin » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:02 am

Racist.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
hoodie
Burning Man
Posts: 4883
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:03 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by hoodie » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:08 am

Personally, I think a good common ground is "bots first within reason" which may also be called "human benefit of the doubt". If it's going to make little to no difference to my strategy to take a bot out first, I will give my human competition the benefit of surviving. In the long run, it's advantageous to me, since the bots will not remember me killing them for 6th, while a human will. It's taking the nature of your opponent into account (including future game repercussions), which is a large, unavoidable part of the game.

What drives me up a wall is when people demand bots first yet attack human opponents. If someone is expecting me to kill a bot first but is popping my continent, they have another thing coming. Once someone is aggressive towards me, all bets are off, "bots first" or not.

User avatar
shock-n-ya'll
LUX POPA
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:35 pm
Location: olympic Mountains.
Contact:

Post by shock-n-ya'll » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:14 am

:shock: I agree with aqua the bots dont give a shit about RAW and we do, I will play in any room bot 1st or not but in my room its bots first and always will be. :!:

User avatar
shock-n-ya'll
LUX POPA
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:35 pm
Location: olympic Mountains.
Contact:

Post by shock-n-ya'll » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:24 am

just one more thing if some people are upset by their "bot kids" being targeted 1st mabye they would have more fun playing in the games instead of making more bots?

User avatar
Blind Willie
Lux Veteran
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 3:06 am
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Blind Willie » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:10 am

shock-n-ya'll wrote:in my room its bots first and always will be.
Well, if that's the case, please advertise it in your game description. Or at least tell players in the first round. Because if nobody says anything, then I will kill the weakest player first, human or bot. And I'm sick of hosts rs'ing midgame when they suddenly decide to play bots first, after never saying anything about it before.

Thank you.

User avatar
maki
Luxer
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:15 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post by maki » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:40 am

Until there comes the day that the bots are as good as we are, I will continute to look to remove the bots from the field of battle first for as AR and Voni have said before, in the interest of fair play.

I appreciate those who have spent time creating bots just as much as anybody else, and enjoyed watching Nef and her siblings rise to the cream of the bot-top. But quite frankly, unless you have 5 bots all teaming up against 1 human, bots just can't beat the better players in the game. So where is it fair that us better players should allow such a weaker player to thrive while killing a stronger IRL player? (ok there are definitely players who aren't that strong....but this is about fairness to those non-AI players in the house).

If I am in a room with 2 players and 3 bots, if I take out the humans first, I will easily beat the other 3 bots, as will any other player who has a decent amount of skill. Where is the competition in that? And if I see someone attacking me instead of a bot, or 2 players ganging up on me, it's because they know I'm stronger then the bot, at which point I personally consider them an inferior, not smarter, player (especially if there is ambiguity about the bots doctrine in the room at the time). Why should I spend my time killing the bots when others try to kill me? I can easily manipulate most of the bots paths to wreak havoc on the other players, but only when that knowledge of no-bots first is common and shared.
Quite frankly, this is a game about people vs. people, not people vs. bots. Bots are the filler when you don't have a full room, therefore their pecking order on the totem pole of Lux is and should always be at the bottom.
Yes, I just quoted myself :roll:

User avatar
Mike
Lux Townie
Posts: 5662
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm
Location: Alabama
Contact:

Post by Mike » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:04 am

Blind Willie wrote:
Weed wrote:I miss the good old days.
Ah...the good old days...

Remember when we didn't have real bots and dustin used to wrap himself up in tin foil and make beeping noises at us?

Maybe that's why he hates bots first...
ROFL

User avatar
Mike
Lux Townie
Posts: 5662
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm
Location: Alabama
Contact:

Re: Bots first is no way to play

Post by Mike » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:14 am

vonibot wrote:
dustin wrote:Bots first is racist against non-humans.
First, Bots are code, they are not capable of being a "race". Attributing bots with human characteristics (like the ability to experience discrimination) only undermines the human experience.

Second, the Bots First Doctrine is, as always, about etiquette. Bots First simply states that humans should treat humans with respect, even within the competitive framework of Lux.

Last: yes, this topic particular is four months old. I apologize for the delay but my retirement benefits do not cover RSS feeds.[/b]
The problem with quote bots first Voni, is that no one plays to the Bots First Doctrine, which is more than just taking out the bot before a human. Your Bots first doctrine is more complex, and when followed is a good way to play for people who Like Bots First.

But what i hate is when a guy stacks next to me in oz, unsuccessfully tries to take the continent, meanwhile his 1 and 2's all over the board are eaten up, becuase he refused to place there, or used them to get the card, and ultimately I have to take him out, and he cries Bots first Bots First.

I think Dustin's point is, that Bots First (unless followed to the letter by your Doctrine) does not work. And Frankly since you have stopped playing, people stopped following the doctrine, but claim bots first.

I was recently in a game that had bots first in the desc. During play, the timer ran out, and my chat was not responding it was obvious there were connectivity problems, so I closed lux, and re entered the room. The host proceeded to asshat me and ultimately killed off all my countries in his area so I could be taken out by another player. When I said "hey you said bots first" I was told that I became a bot once I left, and re-entered. This is the kind of environment that leads to one to conclude that Bots First does not work. Because the majority of people who claim bots first, don't even know what it means, by your definition. They think that as long as they take the bots our first, they can attack and beat down human players as they like.

For most players I have noticed that claim Bot's first today , it is like claiming to be a Pro-War Christian, it is bots first only when it is advantageous.

User avatar
maki
Luxer
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:15 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post by maki » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:20 am

...and to that Mike, I can only disagree that what he did was 'asshat' (not being in the room I don't know exactly what happened), but why is it that removing your 1's and 2's from a continent someone else wants is deemed 'asshatting' in the first place? bots or no bots, that's just called strategy.

User avatar
Mike
Lux Townie
Posts: 5662
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm
Location: Alabama
Contact:

Post by Mike » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:35 am

maki wrote:...and to that Mike, I can only disagree that what he did was 'asshat' (not being in the room I don't know exactly what happened), but why is it that removing your 1's and 2's from a continent someone else wants is deemed 'asshatting' in the first place? bots or no bots, that's just called strategy.
My point exactly, if you read Vonibots Doctrine, in relation to the game mentioned, that 'strategy' would be in direct violation of bots first. This is why bots first, as it is played today, does not work - and only leads to dissonance.

User avatar
redrum
The GAME
Posts: 498
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:13 pm
Location: USA

Post by redrum » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:51 pm

I like playing Jerry's Kids first!

User avatar
vonibot
Lux Addict
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:07 pm
Location: the semi-holy ministry of semi-retirement

Re: Bots first is no way to play

Post by vonibot » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:45 pm

Mike wrote:The problem with quote bots first Voni, is that no one plays to the Bots First Doctrine, which is more than just taking out the bot before a human. Your Bots first doctrine is more complex, and when followed is a good way to play for people who Like Bots First.
Thank you. You are absolutely correct; Bots First has always been exploitable.

Unfortunately, because it is a doctrine of etiquette, rather than the 'rule of law', players can take advantage of its goodwill.
Mike wrote:And Frankly since you have stopped playing, people stopped following the doctrine, but claim bots first.
You point out another unfortunate truth, Mike.
When I played, it was easier to for me to enforce Bots First while instructing new players on its merits.

Admittedly, the Bots First Doctrine is a social experiment: Can a group of individuals with competing interests work together to eliminate a common enemy before destroying one another?
Apparently, the answer is often: no.

Of course, you and I both know that irony gets the last laugh: If coded correctly, the bots would not question a Human First Doctrine. It seems humans are the flawed one’s when it comes to these things--so it should come as no surprise why I have always thought it is in our best interest to get rid of them first. :)

Cheers, Mike!

voni

User avatar
Baden
Lux Elder
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:26 am
Location: Baden (Germany)

Post by Baden » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:33 pm

I am not a dedicated follower of the bots 1st doctrine, but I frequently host meanwhile with the description "bots first as long as more than two are in the game". The reason is simple: Since I encourage unregs and noobs playing in my room and start games sometimes with 4 bots in they have a chance to survive. If they weaken themselves by attacking each other they frequently get slaughtered by the bots early. As we all know, noobs tend to waste armies in an early state of the game by attacking furiously. So it is some kind of self-protection as well that allows me to start games without the precaution some other hosts are using by locking out low-ranked or unexperienced players.

Just recently hosted games with 4 bots and an unreg. It is still high risk if you don't win. The grateful unreg was pleased to have a chance to play, got 2nd twice and will buy the game as he told me.

User avatar
pls
Lux Eldest
Posts: 2074
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: In my second childhood

Post by pls » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:20 pm

Baden wrote:...Since I encourage unregs and noobs playing in my room and start games sometimes with 4 bots in they have a chance to survive. If they weaken themselves by attacking each other they frequently get slaughtered by the bots early...
What Baden said. It's no fun to be in a game with suicidal n00bs and a nasty bot when the bot ends up winning.

And what Vonibot said, in that "bots first" is more of an etiquette than a game strategy. I really enjoy games in which the players are polite, funny, aggressive, but not nasty and follow "bots first" when that is in the game description ... even if I end up on the bottom. After all, is it really about the raw, at any cost? I say, it's about the FUN! And "bots first" is simply more fun than not.

User avatar
mrs.vonibot
Luxer
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: voni's side
Contact:

Post by mrs.vonibot » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:26 pm

Dearest Luxers,

What Voni said.
PHHTTTTTTT!

Bless Your Hearts,
Mrs. Vonibot

Adam F
Luxer
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:03 am

Post by Adam F » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:28 am

Bots...like dogs, ants, plywood and feces...lack the divine spark given by God to human beings. They may have intelligence, they may even be 'alive,' but they are not equivalent to human players and should not be treated as such. The bots first rule correctly assumes the primacy of the human race, and in my opinion, is not strict enough. Bots should not only be eliminated first, they should be banned. Nothing personal bots...my cat, Bean, is also technically "banned" from playing in my home games. It's just logical.

DEATH TO BOTS

User avatar
el toro
Met Dustin
Posts: 4641
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:02 pm
Location: chi-town
Contact:

Post by el toro » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:48 am

BOTS are human too!

User avatar
One Big Wave
Lux Emo Star
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:20 pm
Location: Hiding

Post by One Big Wave » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:50 am

Some day Reaper is gonna be smart enough to read the forums and its gonna smoke all your asses for killing him first so many times.

User avatar
AquaRegia
Lux Ambassador
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Lounging once more at the mods' retirement villa
Contact:

Post by AquaRegia » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:04 am

Great - now I'm gonna have that "Terminator" nightmare again tonight.

Image

Anonymous

Bots First

Post by Anonymous » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:37 pm

from my experience hosting games it seems like when u put bots first in the game description people tend to play more civilized. and not hit someone's Income first chance they get. (example) The map castle lux si (the only map i play i love that map) :lol: in the beginning of the game u take a castle, with sometimes no army left. The next turn with 3 open castles to take a person takes the castle u just spent all your guys on. what could a person put in the game description to prevent that type of game play? For me bots first is letting everyone have a fair chance in the beginning of the the game. after that if some one is playing really poor like not defending and biting of more than they can chew. sure they deserve to be hit. but not in the first turn of the game. thanks for your time and lets have a luxen great time :bang:

User avatar
jOnNiE
Lux Hasselhoff
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:24 am
Location: in the bottom of the bottle

Re: Bots First

Post by jOnNiE » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:48 pm

derek wrote:from my experience hosting games it seems like when u put bots first in the game description people tend to play more civilized. and not hit someone's Income first chance they get. (example) The map castle lux si (the only map i play i love that map) :lol: in the beginning of the game u take a castle, with sometimes no army left. The next turn with 3 open castles to take a person takes the castle u just spent all your guys on. what could a person put in the game description to prevent that type of game play? For me bots first is letting everyone have a fair chance in the beginning of the the game. after that if some one is playing really poor like not defending and biting of more than they can chew. sure they deserve to be hit. but not in the first turn of the game. thanks for your time and lets have a luxen great time :bang:
What you are describing is not bots first, it is only attack the bots and do not attack the humans. That way is ridiculous in my opinion. Especially in castle lux.

I have played with people that restart games because their income was attacked in a bots first game. That is what I assume you play and that is your prefs, but I would never play with you.

shopi
Luxer
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:10 pm
Location: paris.france

Post by shopi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:14 pm

I prefer "bots first fanatics" first.

It's much more fun, they DO whine while bots don't.
Unless Preach is working on it?

User avatar
Bertrand
Reaper Creator
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:35 pm
Location: Montreal

Post by Bertrand » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:14 pm

Here is my take on bot firsters. What I am against is explicitly imposing bots first. What I think makes more sense is "implicit" bots first: if you have an equivalent choice between killing a bot and a human, then yes killing the bot first makes sense. Lux (and Risk) is a social game where diplomacy is crucial. Bots cannot participate in that aspect of the game, and it's in your best interest to avoid making enemies. Humans have a long memory, while bots have none.

On the other hand, if a human player is weaker than a bot and can be easily killed, then he deserves to die. The killed player will not like it, but he should be able to understand why it happened to him. He might even respect you for it. This is a war game, and dying is normal... Learn from it.

Dustin uses the word "racist" to describe bot firsters. Imagine a world where the bots are human-like in appearance and intelligence. They would be our slaves, treated as non-entities. The bot makers would have built in safeguards to prevent them from hurting humans. Not very pleasant for them, right? I do not think they would like us very much. Hmmmm, I have just described the plot of Blade Runner, my favorite movie.

Racism reflects the very human fear of the unknown, of the outsider. Since it has evolved with us, then it must mean that it is good for the species as a whole! Of course, it's not fun for the individuals being discriminated against. But that is how evolution works...

User avatar
pls
Lux Eldest
Posts: 2074
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: In my second childhood

Post by pls » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:23 pm

Bertrand wrote:Hmmmm, I have just described the plot of Blade Runner, my favorite movie.
Mine too. But remember, the thrust of the plot was that Harrison Ford's job was to kill the bots first. And the final twist was that the next-to-the-last bot, played by Rutger Hauer, DID have feelings, apparently.

In the end, Harrison and Sean (the last replicant/bot) flew off into the wild, blue yonder, which makes absolutely no sense in a Lux context, a war story, whereas "Blade Runner" is much more complicated. Even its book counterpart, Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" isn't simple, either.

So I'll stick with bots first in the games I host. Luckily for you, I don't whine.

User avatar
Baden
Lux Elder
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:26 am
Location: Baden (Germany)

Post by Baden » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:23 am

Bertrand wrote:...Dustin uses the word "racist" to describe bot firsters (...) Racism reflects the very human fear of the unknown, of the outsider. Since it has evolved with us, then it must mean that it is good for the species as a whole! Of course, it's not fun for the individuals being discriminated against. But that is how evolution works...
I agree as much on the part of your post I don't quote as I disagree on the "racism" analogy. Racism is far from being "good for the species as a whole" and I am pretty sure Dustin used the term ironically.

Raging against the machine by destroying your alarm-clock is an understandable emotion while shooting the muezzin on the tower of a nearby mosque who keeps disturbing you with "unknown" noise is a crime.

I saw playing some real racists in this game. They usually don't go after the bot first - they get satisfaction by targeting human players first ("niggers", "jews", gays" etc.) instead.

I refrain from taking this game too seriously - but envisioning an analogical behaviour of some vile people here in real life keeps disturbing me. But as usual the braggart in the chat will frequently turn out as coward in reality. Happily I don't have to meet them personally.

Game descriptions like: No players with less than ... points or "no noobs" allowed are rather reminding of racism than the bots first rule.

Furthermore the ridiculous attitude of some high-ranked players acting like members of a "master race" is rather debatable than the harmless bots-first rule.

User avatar
Bertrand
Reaper Creator
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:35 pm
Location: Montreal

Post by Bertrand » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:34 am

pls wrote:In the end, Harrison and Sean (the last replicant/bot) ...
In my mind, the final twist of Blade Runner is that Dekkard (Harrison Ford) is himself a replicant. I liked that movie because it worked on multiple levels, and could be interpreted in many ways.

The point I tried to make in my above post is that, inevitably, bots will be discriminated against because they are different, outsiders. That, to me, was the central message of Blade Runner.
Baden wrote:Racism is far from being "good for the species as a whole"
But how are we to know that? There is no way to prove this. I think that we are the product of our evolution, and that nature found the best solution to ensure our survival. That includes both good *and* bad human behaviours. But I agree that racism is a loaded word, and using it in the context of Lux is perhaps not a good idea.

User avatar
AquaRegia
Lux Ambassador
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Lounging once more at the mods' retirement villa
Contact:

Post by AquaRegia » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:53 am

Reaper yelled at me yesterday in chat for saying "NOT bots first, right?"

Thanks for feeding my nightmares, Bertrand. :lol:

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 155 guests