A new president.... woo hoo!!!

Preserving History. Honoring Excellence.
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Who will you (or would vote if you could) vote for president?

McCain
22
26%
Obama
43
51%
Independent
5
6%
Undecided
5
6%
I don't vote - don't care
4
5%
Kitty on Catnip
6
7%
 
Total votes: 85

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Kool-Aid Man
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Post by Kool-Aid Man » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:58 am

the tide wrote:Call it what you will, it's a federal tax.
What's your point?

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Post by the tide » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:07 pm

Kool-Aid Man wrote:
the tide wrote:Call it what you will, it's a federal tax.
What's your point?
You're all over the place.

You make the distinction between federal income tax and (or flat tax...wink) payroll taxes. This invalidates #1 of your list. #2 is an expansion of EITC which exists today and was strengthened by Mr. Conservative himself - Ronald Reagan.
the tide wrote:
Kool-Aid Man wrote:
hoodie wrote:Under Obama's plan, 95% of the population pays the same or lower taxes than they currently do.
That particular talking point, repeated ad nauseam in debates, stump speeches and in commercials, is a gross and deliberate deception. The media and many Obama supporters should be ashamed for perpetuating this falsehood.

1. Currently, ~45% of Americans pay ZERO federal income tax.

2. Obama is playing with words. His proposed tax "cuts" are not cuts, but rather, by definition, "refundable tax credits", meaning: those who pay no income tax whatsoever will receive a government check. Not too long ago such government payments were called "welfare" rather than "tax cuts".

3. Obama is playing with numbers. For example: Bush's $1000 per child tax credit expires in 2010 and will revert to $500 as under previous law. Obama is proposing to "renew" this $1000 credit and thus claim the $500 difference as a "new tax cut". Failing to acknowledge this specific extension of current law is, at best, intellectually dishonest and, at worst, a cynical manipulation.

4. As of 2007, workers pay a 6.2% payroll tax on gross annual income up to $97,500; employers are required to another 6.2% in "matching" funds. Obama has proposed raising or removing this "ceiling", effectively levying a new tax on income above ~$100k with the self-employed being hardest hit. Studies have shown that such a change would increase government revenues by ~$1.3 trillion over the next 10 years.

5. Obama has repeatedly proposed increasing the capital gains tax, albeit to varying degrees. Anyone with long term investments in stocks, bonds, mutual funds or real estate would be effected, regardless of income level.

Conclusion:

Never take campaign slogans, from any candidate, at face value. Please study policy details before repeating anything you've heard from politicians. Neither your friends nor the media, for better or worse, will do your homework for you.
Points one and four contradict each other. Also, two correlates with four.

Payroll taxes are the state and federal taxes that you, as an employer, are required to withhold and/or to pay on behalf of your employees. You are required to withhold state and federal income taxes as well as social security and Medicare taxes from your employees' wages. You are also required to pay a matching amount of social security and Medicare taxes for your employees and to pay State and Federal unemployment tax.

Have each new employee complete IRS form W-4. You will use this form to calculate the amount of federal income tax to withhold from the employee's wages. Most of the states have income tax structures that are based on the federal system, so you will use the W-4 to calculate the amount of state income tax to withhold as well.

Social security and Medicare taxes, also known as FICA taxes must be withheld from your employees' wages. As an employer, you must also pay a matching amount of FICA taxes for your employees. Currently the social security tax rate is 6.2%. You are required to withhold 6.2% of an employee's wages for social security taxes and to pay a matching amount in social security taxes until the employee reaches the wage base for the year. The wage base for social security tax is $97,500 for the year 2007. Once that amount is earned, neither the employee or the employer owes any social security tax.

The Medicare tax rate is 2.9% for the employee and the employer. You will withhold 1.45% of an employee's wages and pay a matching amount for Medicare tax. There is no wage base for the Medicare portion of the FICA tax. Both the employer and the employee continue to pay Medicare tax, no matter how much is earned.

The employer also must pay State and Federal Unemployment Taxes (SUTA and FUTA). The FUTA rate is 6.2 %, but you can take a credit of up to 5.4% for SUTA taxes that you pay. If you are eligible for the maximum credit your FUTA rate will be 0.8%. The wage base for FUTA is $7,000. You will stop paying FUTA for each employee once his or her wages exceed $7,000 for the year. You will need to check with your state about SUTA tax rates and the wage base. Generally, your SUTA tax rate is based on the amount of unemployment claims that are filed by employees that you have terminated. When your business is new, your SUTA tax rate starts at the maximum and declines if you build a history of few claims.

For information on Federal payroll tax requirements, check out IRS publication 15, Circular E. For information on State payroll tax requirements, contact your state's taxation and revenue department
.

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Post by Big Will E Style » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:39 pm

I just voted.

I just wanted to say Thanks to everyone for these discussions. I really did consider a lot of the issues this year. Though I'm not in agreement with a lot of you, I do have a greater respect for you all. No matter what happens, let's hope our country is going in the right direction.

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Post by nimrod7 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:02 pm

Right on Will.

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Post by Black Pope » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:44 pm

Black Pope is still reeling from Hoodie's comment that this is the ugliest election in modern history...

I wouldn't even put it in the top ten: its been remarkably civil. Most Americans seem to believe if you attack Barack, you're atttacking a rock star or a black man while also believing if you attack Palin, you're attacking a woman.

Whatever. It's over. Whoever wins, wins, one side will bitch and believe one kind of stats, the other group will defend and believe the other stats.

In the end, it is about what we do everyday and on that point, my conscience is clear.

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Post by The Wontrob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:00 am

A fantastic day for everyone.
Barack Obama wrote:And while the democratic party has won a great victory tonight, we do so with a measure of humility and determination to heal the divides that have held back our progress. As Lincoln said to a nation far more divided than ours, "We are not enemies, but friends. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection." And to those Americans whose support I have yet to earn, I may not have won your vote tonight, but I hear your voices, I need your help, and I will be your president too.
The man is great for our country. He will do well.


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02BV5Zah ... re=channel 8:30-9:20)

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Post by Enokrad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:58 am

Image

For the first time in 6 years i finally remembered how it feels to have a president you can believe will serve the people for the people :smt109

Just found this clip about Barack talking about Technology to Google employees a year ago.

Just one of the many reasons i voted for him and the change he can bring.

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Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:08 am

Totally serious...does the Obama worship creep any else out?

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Post by Drifter » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:56 am

Black Pope wrote:Totally serious...does the Obama worship creep any else out?
Yes, yes it does. All he has done so far is talk a good talk, yet he already has superhero status with some people.

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Post by Enokrad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:59 am

Black Pope wrote:Totally serious...does the Obama worship creep any else out?
Not as much as the blind followership Bush & the Republicans had the past 8 years.

And while Obama is no Superhero, he is worshiped us such from his message of hope in these hard times, rather than that of fear in the past 7 years. When you keep scaring people for all the wrong reasons for so many years and failed to see the real threat (economic meltdown), this is bound to happen.

4 Years ago i voted for the person i hated the least.
24 hours ago i voted for the person i truly believed was the right man for the job.

Was it the right choice? Only time will tell.

Barack is no saint or savior but he is a man who (i believe at least) has the good of the people in mind rather than the pockets of the rich.
I can only imagine the billions Cheney and Bush raked on our expense the past 8 years.

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Post by Scad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:18 am

The Wontrob wrote:A fantastic day for everyone.
Not Everyone

∞ Scad fears for his state and his married gay friends. ∞

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Post by SnyperEye » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am

Drifter wrote:
Black Pope wrote:Totally serious...does the Obama worship creep any else out?
Yes, yes it does. All he has done so far is talk a good talk, yet he already has superhero status with some people.
Good GOD MAN! Give him a chance he's only been elected President just yesterday.

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Post by Enokrad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am

Scad wrote:
The Wontrob wrote:A fantastic day for everyone.
Not Everyone

∞ Scad fears for his state and his married gay friends. ∞
with 9.500.000 votes in they are down 350.000 votes with about 800.000 left to go.

Interactive map with results for Prop 8

A simple majority should should never have the ability to approve a law, especially one such as this. :smt009

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Post by SnyperEye » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:48 am

Personally, Proposition 8 (which is Proposition 2 in Florida) Is stupid to be even voted on.

I have a couple gay friends and I don't understand why things that dont effect other people has to be voted on. Sure its not something I think is right but If it doesnt effect me or changes the way Im living today, SO Fvcking what. Why should straight people be the only ones to live in misery when they get married. Let gay people find out why its hard to be a straight person sometimes LOL. Anyways people just think for themselves and not for others. They are trying to protect the sanctity of marriage. In the words of Wanda Sykes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IHdaJOZe7E

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Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:45 am

THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT OF BUSH
THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON OBAMA


Perhaps, Snyp, you misunderstood my post and, to be honest, I don't even know how that was possible.
This was not at all a criticism. It's expressing an emotion that I started to experience when I watch CNN's surprisingly balanced coverage of the election:
I saw people crying, dancing, going wild. A CNN reporter interviewed numerous people I heard the following phrases (not exact quote, just the best I can remember), some with tears:

The sun of hope has risen! - (I actually heard that phrase)
I can't believe this happened, I just can't believe it happened, oh my god, its here!
The days of darkness are over.

Stuff like that. The kind of statements that, if uttered by a Christian about Jesus, would be considered the worst kind of radicalism and perhaps even spark a post here like the one about Bible Camp.
If this continues, his life will be in danger worse than it is now: not by those who hate him, but by those who love him and are shocked when he doesn't heal the world. If they don't turn against him, they'll turn against those that are perceived to be "holding him back".

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Post by Enokrad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:02 am

if the sun is up, you can't have darkness. duh :mrgreen: makes sence

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Post by Mike » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:28 am

BP - I hear you on the almost 'fanatic' devotion people have right now... I don't quite get it either.

However, I caution the world - the faster the 'rush' the bigger the 'high' - the farther the 'drop' and the more painful the 'fall'...

I have not seen this amount of 'Patriotism' since right after 911 - and it felt so good at that time - we as a Nation seemed 'drunk' with such Nationalism that most of us nodded in unison as we made rash and in hindsight not so good decisions.

I hope that if we have learned anything from the last 8 years - is that we as a country need to hold our Politicians accountable - so that their present actions are not made on a whim or without careful consideration.

We are a very Powerful nation - and due to the nature of our power - it is a lot more difficult, and requires significantly more thought and consideration to benefit the world - but it is easier to satisfy short term desires, that could ultimately have disastrous ramifications for the world.

I hope President Obama works as hard to make the right decisions - as he did to get elected.

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Post by One Big Wave » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:17 am

He set the bar extremely high in order to get elected, he has a lot of work to do.

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Post by jOnNiE » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:36 am

Black Pope wrote:THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT OF BUSH
THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON OBAMA


Perhaps, Snyp, you misunderstood my post and, to be honest, I don't even know how that was possible.
This was not at all a criticism. It's expressing an emotion that I started to experience when I watch CNN's surprisingly balanced coverage of the election:
I saw people crying, dancing, going wild. A CNN reporter interviewed numerous people I heard the following phrases (not exact quote, just the best I can remember), some with tears:

The sun of hope has risen! - (I actually heard that phrase)
I can't believe this happened, I just can't believe it happened, oh my god, its here!
The days of darkness are over.

Stuff like that. The kind of statements that, if uttered by a Christian about Jesus, would be considered the worst kind of radicalism and perhaps even spark a post here like the one about Bible Camp.
If this continues, his life will be in danger worse than it is now: not by those who hate him, but by those who love him and are shocked when he doesn't heal the world. If they don't turn against him, they'll turn against those that are perceived to be "holding him back".
He is the first black person voted as the President of the U.S. Is that not a spectacular thing? I have seen older black men cry on tv, which they have every right to do. Some of these men were part of the civil right protests back in the 60's. Imagine what America was like 50 years ago. People are emotional because this is a historic event in American History. People are losing their homes, their jobs, their retirement, their lives as they have known them. Is that not emotional? This isn't a normal time.

that being said, He has a lot of work to do, and is it possible for him to do everything he says? For now, it is hope that we all need. I just hope he can really do everything he says he can do. Only the future will tell.

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Post by blackj3sus » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:45 am

sounds like some kind of blackjesus you guys are talking about...

Image

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Post by sasquatch » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:00 pm

Obama ran a brilliant campaign! And even though the fervent superfans of Obama can be a bit arrogant and over the top with the emotion, I don't see those same qualities in Obama himself. He seems quite humble and inclusive with his words. A far cry from the leadership we have experienced for the past 8 years. The creepiest thing I saw during this campaign was Palin saying she was "doing God's work" and her supporters saying "God wants her to be elected"... then she stands up to deliver bigoted disinformation. Thanks God, for the majority of rational voters. An interesting question... is a messenger of hope as effective as a prophet of fear in this day and age? Not sure what the answer is there. Time will tell.

:lincoln:

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Post by 3DA » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:07 pm

I think Obama's acceptance speech last night recognized the task ahead.

I was there in Grant park. I encourage you all to read my blog entry about it:

http://johndaltondesign.wordpress.com/

I won't repeat here what I wrote there.

But his speech was indeed sober. He encouraged disagreement with him; he encouraged work. He knows it's coming. He does have a huge job. But, (OK, I'll repeat one thing) for the first time in my life I TRUST my president. I cannot describe what a weird feeling that is. I grew up eyeing the government with mistrust at the least and open hatred at the most. I don't want to wax poetical about it, but the event is really that huge for me. For the first time in my life, what I BELIEVE about America as an idea has some kind of shape in the Oval Office.

So forgive me my outburst of cockeyed optimism. What's really happening here is that all of the passion and energy I've put into shouting about the injustices in the government, throwing bricks, writing vitriol, discussing heatedly, asking questions ... after all of that, there is one glimmer of optimism. Frankly, I'm beside myself with joy.

Perhaps y'all understand now the depths of despair that people in this country were really in, if the election of this one man can produce such a furor.

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Post by supergood » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:27 pm

First off, I just want to say congratulations to the Obama supporters.

I also saw many instances of "worshiping" last night as I watch the television. A local TV newscaster in Phoenix actually started crying as she talked about it - weird!

Next, I just wanted to say I was impressed by McCain's very gracious speech last night as he conceded the race. I haven't always agreed with his policies, but I was impressed by his attitude, humility, and patriotism he showed. Noone can say that John McCain has not been a great example of service to his country.

I wish Obama much luck in the task ahead. He has huge problems to undertake. I hope he will uphold the constitution and our freedoms that we enjoy - the freedoms that many have died for. This this is one of my worst fears.

I do not agree with Mr. Obama on many issues, but I will respect him as the leader of my country.

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Post by hoodie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:45 pm

BP, I'm truly saddened by your cynicism, and I can't pinpoint where it's coming from. When I can figure that out I can help explain why Obama is a good man and a good choice. Without that, it's a useless task for me. And I need a day to celebrate, because for the first time in years, I believe in the person leading this country, and not blindly. Not blindly by any means.

Congrats to everyone who worked and donated and supported. We did this. And to everyone who didn't, watch that acceptance speech. It's a thing of beauty and humility and a call for us all to be Real America.

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Post by n00less cluebie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:47 pm

Enokrad wrote: For the first time in 6 years i finally remembered how it feels to have a president you can believe will serve the people for the people :smt109
*6* years????

Were you one of the supporters of Dan Quayles 2002 Presidential Bid?

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Post by The Wontrob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:49 pm

Scad wrote:
The Wontrob wrote:A fantastic day for everyone.
Not Everyone

∞ Scad fears for his state and his married gay friends. ∞
Connecticut voted down the Constitutional Convention that would have made overturning the gay marriage amendment possible. So here, yes. Everyone. I agree with Snype though... this isn't a vote. There is a clear logical answer that any unbiased bystander should be able to see. It makes me sick to think that only 4% of the states in this country allow same-sex marriage. I am proud to live in one of them.


Yes, the Obama following is slightly overboard. But I feel that you would not feel much less overwhelmed in a black church BP. Maybe you have before, but I really think its a culture thing. It is a historic moment for us to finally break free of the white, married, Christian face of America. For the first time, equality is reality. Change has happened, and he brought it to the country. I think that resonates with the people he represents more than it does with you and I. Is it excessive? Yes. But they've earned it. We've all earned it. It's not so much Obama worship as everything he stands for.

The million man march wasn't Martin Luther King's army. He just put it together.

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Post by Llama LluxaLlot » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm

Prop 8

Feh

Here in Oregon I had friends with kids get married. One partner is an Electrition, one is a stay at home mom. Finally everyone could get on healthcare benifits, have legal protection without paying a lawyer to get droves of paperwork trying to get the same rights. 3 months later, All Gay marriages were anulled. It really messes with peoples lives.

Civil unions that gave all the rights of marriage would be a step in the right direction if they could be PERMANANT. For the love of Humanity. Ack

Lux Llama

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Post by Scad » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:11 pm

I'm with BP here, but also with hoodie: yes, the hero worship Obama is receiving is a little disturbing, and it worries me. When we have a president-elect this beloved, and with what appears to be a very broad mandate, there is room for a lot of things to go under the radar, or to be accepted in the name of "change." If there were a time to have a conservative media, now is it. (My view on that is: liberal reporters, conservative corporations.) But I think we need an honest, respectable, conservative-inclined media to keep Obama and the Senate and House on the proper path. We can't be blind in our adulation, simply because he's a black man (We didn't elect a black man yesterday; we elected a good man) or because he's not Dubya. If we've learned anything in the past eight years, it has to be to watch, and to be as wary of our government, at times, as we are of anything else.

At the same time, not gonna lie: I have hope. I think we elected the right person, and I hope that he can do the right things. I think that if we are wary of our government, that maybe this year, we will not see anything that scares us. That maybe we can stand vigilant, without having to stand guard.

Oh, and I'm thinking of moving to Connecticut. My state embarrasses me.

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Post by mbauer » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:12 pm

Before this spirals too far out of control, which from the context is where I see it going, I think there has been a little miscommunication on everyone's part.

At first, I too read BP's comment as cynicism or criticism, which is fine. He's aloud to be cynical and criticise. After all "the liberals" have been through these last 6 years that's the one thing they should remember and learn from. Just because someone criticises, does NOT make them "against" you. The liberals have been on the other side of that, being called disloyal or un-american for opposing Bush, and now here you are seeming to fling that same crap. Even if he were being critical (which I don't think he is) he's aloud to! Listen to him, don't disregard him just because he disagrees. We CAN NOT go down that road again. WE MUST learn from the past or else we are doomed to repeat it!

Now as for what BP is saying, IMO, is really quite harmless and not all that crtitical of Obama or his supporters. All he is saying (I think) is that the Obama supporters appear, to him, to be doing the same thing that evengelical christians did for Bush. And when those Christian did that for Bush "the liberals" decried it as radical and "crazy." That is not critical, it's simply an observation, and it's accurate. And you know what, he has a point! Listen! Learn! A lot of people really like Obama, and that is absolutely fantastic! A lot of people really liked Bush also.

The coin has flipped now and the "liberals" are on the side that the "conservatives" were on 4 short years ago. Neither side should forget what it was like to be on the other side of the coin.

MB

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Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:38 pm

hoodie wrote:BP, I'm truly saddened by your cynicism, and I can't pinpoint where it's coming from. When I can figure that out I can help explain why Obama is a good man and a good choice. Without that, it's a useless task for me. And I need a day to celebrate, because for the first time in years, I believe in the person leading this country, and not blindly. Not blindly by any means.
Hoods, I love the hell outa ya, but this is precisely the problem I was talking about.
How is what I typed cynical? I asked if anyone else felt nervous when they saw/heard what I saw/heard. If you look at my point as I continued, I expressed that my fear was and is for President Elect Obama's safety.
Hell, even within this thread, let alone in numerous other threads, people encouraged fear at religious zealotry, while setting the standard for zealotry pretty damn low. You didn't chime in there and call it cynicism: nobody did.
History has shown that wild, unbridled enthusiasm for a political leader either results in assassination, a dictatorship, or the kind of pooch screw we've seen post 9-11.
President Elect Obama has a vision for America that I like very much: I'm wildly opposed to him on the issue of abortion and horrified that he considers the signing of FOCA as "among the first things [he] needs to do". Take that out, and probably a disagreement on the efficiency of government assistance for the poor, and I'm not sure what else we disagree on. You commended me on my politics not three weeks ago, if I remember right...so how is what I typed cynical?

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