A new president.... woo hoo!!!

Preserving History. Honoring Excellence.

Who will you (or would vote if you could) vote for president?

McCain
22
26%
Obama
43
51%
Independent
5
6%
Undecided
5
6%
I don't vote - don't care
4
5%
Kitty on Catnip
6
7%
 
Total votes: 85

User avatar
Black Pope
Lux Exorcist
Posts: 3878
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: God's Right Hand
Contact:

Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:43 pm

MB, despite the time gap, I posted my previous thread before I saw yours. It's shockingly rare that I feel understood here politically and that is precisely what I read in your post: Understanding. Thank you thank you thank you.
Thank you.
I'm leaving my response up, frankly because it took me about 25 minutes to put together: I couldn't figure out how to articulate what you did so well.
Thank you, MB.



Did I say "thank you"? :D

Hoodie, this should end our first disagreement ever...lol

User avatar
Big Will E Style
RAW Dogger
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:48 pm

You know..........I didn't vote for Obama. I don't agree with a lot of his plans for this country. I think a lot of his supporters are blindly supporting him.

That being said....I am proud Americans showed how far we have come as a country. I think we really proved we have started to look beyond race. If Obama had the same beliefs as me, I would have voted for him. If there are people out there who voted for Obama just because he has black in him? Then I say good for them. They did more for this country by electing a bi-racial man to be our president than anything else Obama may have stood for. And for that I guess it off-sets any sort of sorrow I may feel for what might come in the next 4 to 8 years in terms of Obama's policies. That's why this country is great, since 1933 when FDR became President, we have had 6 Democrats and 6 Republicans as our president. Obama will be the 7th democrat. This is what our country is about. Checks and Balances. No side gets its way all the time.

On another note, with consideration to Hoodie, who I have come to respect greatly, and what seems to be the majority on these forums, I voted Yes on Prop 8 yesterday. I don't say that to gloat, because it was an issue I was torn on. Ultimately, my belief is that marriage is between a man and woman. I have nothing against homosexuality. I think they should have every right that heterosexuals enjoy, but from what my research on the topic showed, the only discrimination gay people were receiving was on a federal level. Domestic Partnerships in California receive the same state benefits as marriage. The only difference is the actual word. I don't know. I feel bad because this is a cause that I know a lot of you feel strongly about one way or another. I hope me putting my thoughts out here hasn't offended anyone. I do think in the future people will get sick of fighting the cause and gays will be able to get married anyway. And I'll be ok with it. But at this point, I had to follow what I believe. Ultimately, I think the government should not recognize marriages, but civil unions. Then whoever wants to get a civil union with government benefits can. I dunno.....I think it's a very touchy issue.
Last edited by Big Will E Style on Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jOnNiE
Lux Hasselhoff
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:24 am
Location: in the bottom of the bottle

Post by jOnNiE » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:53 pm

Black Pope wrote:
hoodie wrote:BP, I'm truly saddened by your cynicism, and I can't pinpoint where it's coming from. When I can figure that out I can help explain why Obama is a good man and a good choice. Without that, it's a useless task for me. And I need a day to celebrate, because for the first time in years, I believe in the person leading this country, and not blindly. Not blindly by any means.
Hoods, I love the hell outa ya, but this is precisely the problem I was talking about.
How is what I typed cynical? I asked if anyone else felt nervous when they saw/heard what I saw/heard. If you look at my point as I continued, I expressed that my fear was and is for President Elect Obama's safety.
Hell, even within this thread, let alone in numerous other threads, people encouraged fear at religious zealotry, while setting the standard for zealotry pretty damn low. You didn't chime in there and call it cynicism: nobody did.
History has shown that wild, unbridled enthusiasm for a political leader either results in assassination, a dictatorship, or the kind of pooch screw we've seen post 9-11.
President Elect Obama has a vision for America that I like very much: I'm wildly opposed to him on the issue of abortion and horrified that he considers the signing of FOCA as "among the first things [he] needs to do". Take that out, and probably a disagreement on the efficiency of government assistance for the poor, and I'm not sure what else we disagree on. You commended me on my politics not three weeks ago, if I remember right...so how is what I typed cynical?
I'm scared for his safety too BP. I see your point.

User avatar
The Wontrob
Ninja Doughboy
Posts: 2792
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: The Pan-Holy Church, frollicking
Contact:

Post by The Wontrob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:57 pm

Big Will E Style wrote: Ultimately, my belief is that marriage is between a man and woman. I have nothing against homosexuality. I think they should have every right that heterosexuals enjoy, but from what my research on the topic showed, the only discrimination gay people were receiving was on a federal level. Domestic Partnerships in California receive the same state benefits as marriage. The only difference is the actual word.
One of my gay friends wrote:Yay civil unions! Another benefit for us termed to set us apart from the rest of society!
I read the decision the Connecticut Supreme Court put out about the issue. Its on the forums somewhere. What they said was, that by creating a civil union with all the rights of gay marriage, it had been stated that the union of a homosexual couple did not cause cognizable harm. They are allowed to be in a union, and you yourself said that you have no problem with that. However, by separating the terminology between "marriage" and a "civil union", the state had established a separation between the two ideologically, causing cognizable harm by basically creating a separate, 'unnatural' classicification.

And as much as I respect your decision and deliberation Will, I do not understand your logic. You do not mind homosexuals being in unions, and acknowledge that the only difference is the word, but in the same swing say that this should be good enough. Equality is good enough. Complete equality.

User avatar
The Wontrob
Ninja Doughboy
Posts: 2792
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: The Pan-Holy Church, frollicking
Contact:

Post by The Wontrob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:02 pm

And @ BP...

I see where you are coming from, and yes, I agree, it was almost cultish and I was frightened. I just think that on the eve of a black president-elect, I can understand America's attribution of happiness to the person who represents the transition. I believe (I hope) that on January 20th, when the job begins, it will no longer be that way. He will no longer be the first black president elected, he will be the president of the united states just like the rest before him. I get the impression that he is humbled by his opportunity and will do his absolute best in office. As scary as it was, I do not think the next four years will follow the lead. And I hope you do not prove me wrong.

User avatar
Big Will E Style
RAW Dogger
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:07 pm

Our country is full of classifications. I stated that I believed the government should recognize everyone as a civil union. Government did not create the word marriage, so how do they now have the ability to change what it means? That's all I'm saying.

User avatar
Shockandawe
Lux Vigilante
Posts: 2182
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 am
Location: In orbit around Kerbin.

Post by Shockandawe » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:29 pm

We as citizens must be more knowlegeable than in the past with what our government is going to be doing. With a full democratic majority in both the house and the senate and a democratic president we need to pay more attention to our government. They will have the ability to pass any law they want at any time they want. This truley concerns me...

User avatar
supergood
Baby Mama
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by supergood » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:48 pm

The Wontrob wrote:
It is a historic moment for us to finally break free of the white, married, Christian face of America.
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Barack more white than black - doesn't he oppose gay marriage - and isn't he a Christian?

User avatar
Black Pope
Lux Exorcist
Posts: 3878
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: God's Right Hand
Contact:

Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:54 pm

No, because if he was, then we could say shit like that about him and itbwould be okay.

User avatar
jOnNiE
Lux Hasselhoff
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:24 am
Location: in the bottom of the bottle

Post by jOnNiE » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:54 pm

supergood wrote:
The Wontrob wrote:
It is a historic moment for us to finally break free of the white, married, Christian face of America.
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Barack more white than black - doesn't he oppose gay marriage - and isn't he a Christian?
this reminds me of a fellow I ran into Halloween weekend at a bar. He told me not to vote for Obama because he was a muslim. lol

User avatar
Blind Willie
Lux Veteran
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 3:06 am
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Blind Willie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:26 pm

jOnNiE wrote:this reminds me of a fellow I ran into Halloween weekend at a bar. He told me not to vote for Obama because he was a muslim. lol
Was that guy dressed as an ignorant asshole? I hear that was one of the more popular scary costumes this year.

User avatar
hoodie
Burning Man
Posts: 4883
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:03 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by hoodie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:27 pm

First, BP, my apologies. I did misinterpret your first post (that it creeped you out) and from that, my brain primed me to misread your second post, especially since I think you best explained your stance in your last two sentences, by which I was already jumping to conclusions. And that's why it confounded me, it didn't fit in with my conceptualization of who you are. My bad. :D

This leads into the next part, part of my misreading is I'm also exhausted and conflicted with joy and distress for a lot of my friends who are feeling very hurt today.

Big Will, you hit the nail on the head. I think the best way to go about fixing Prop 8, and the thing I think I'm going to put my efforts into, is to change the discussion, which is exactly where we come together and I think California and America will come together as well. The importance of the separation of church and state is not only that it protects the state, it also protects the church. When Yes on 8 folks say they support gay rights, I totally believe they are sincere. Because our conversation is about two different things, and is ill defined, we fight in ways that we don't need to, and waste energies and efforts and create negativity and divisiveness.

I hope that the country as a whole realizes we need to work together, which is why I *do* gain so much energy from Obama's victory. And yes, BP, we need that to be a sane, responsible energy that inspires us to think with our brains and love with our hearts rather than think with our hearts and throw love out the window.

User avatar
Black Pope
Lux Exorcist
Posts: 3878
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: God's Right Hand
Contact:

Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:33 pm

Blind Willie wrote:
jOnNiE wrote:this reminds me of a fellow I ran into Halloween weekend at a bar. He told me not to vote for Obama because he was a muslim. lol
Was that guy dressed as an ignorant asshole? I hear that was one of the more popular scary costumes this year.

First, BW, lol...that was funny.

Second, were you shocked at how few votes we got? I confess, I was sitting by the phone most of the night, waiting for the call...I don't know...I suspect fraud...

Hoodie?

I wub you.

User avatar
SunTzu
Lux Cartographer
Posts: 1586
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:48 am
Location: Maryland

Post by SunTzu » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:42 pm

hoodie wrote:And to everyone who didn't, watch that acceptance speech. It's a thing of beauty and humility and a call for us all to be Real America.
I completely agree with hoodie. That was the best speech I've ever heard.

User avatar
Blind Willie
Lux Veteran
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 3:06 am
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Blind Willie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:47 pm

Black Pope wrote:...I suspect fraud...
I think people just checked the wrong box and accidentally voted for Black/Bland instead of Black/Blind.

I'm sorry.

User avatar
sasquatch
Semiholy Beast
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:35 pm
Location: mountainous & wooded areas
Contact:

Post by sasquatch » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:42 pm

Blind Willie wrote:
Black Pope wrote:...I suspect fraud...
I think people just checked the wrong box and accidentally voted for Black/Bland instead of Black/Blind.
You guys just didn't make enough promises in the last few weeks so I had to once again vote for the candidate I've supported for the past decade, Paris Hilton.
:oops:

WARNING: Clicking on above link will result in the instant culling of higher function brain cells and may lead to reduced vocabulary abilities, repetitive memory syndrome and uncontrollable small dog shopping sprees. What the hell am I going to do with all these chihuahuas?

User avatar
3DA
Luxtopian
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:26 am
Location: Big Chicago
Contact:

Post by 3DA » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:26 pm

This is somewhat tangential, but I have a report from a friend of mine who is in Rome right now.
... we stood in the Colloseum and then the Roman Forum today, and the interaction and clapping at any mention of Obama's name and the kiss-blowing to unknowns and unfamiliars was the most inspiring and humbling experience of my life. we met so many people who knew we were americans and they only had to look at our faces and ask 'Obama?'.... we would then clap, then mention bush and throw two thumbs down ... to great joy...

...everyone here in europe knows what this means, and it is enormously gratifying to see that our respect has not been totally destroyed by the last eight years. europe wants america to be strong, wants us to be moral and ethical leaders, not by force of strength but by our will to do right by humanity.
Just thought you all might be interested in a first hand account of what one country thinks of our new president, and our old one.

User avatar
Big Will E Style
RAW Dogger
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:11 pm

no offense 3DA, but i just puked in my mouth.

User avatar
the tide
:D
Posts: 3609
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Charlotte, US

Post by the tide » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:28 pm

3DA wrote:This is somewhat tangential, but I have a report from a friend of mine who is in Rome right now.
... we stood in the Colloseum and then the Roman Forum today, and the interaction and clapping at any mention of Obama's name and the kiss-blowing to unknowns and unfamiliars was the most inspiring and humbling experience of my life. we met so many people who knew we were americans and they only had to look at our faces and ask 'Obama?'.... we would then clap, then mention bush and throw two thumbs down ... to great joy...

...everyone here in europe knows what this means, and it is enormously gratifying to see that our respect has not been totally destroyed by the last eight years. europe wants america to be strong, wants us to be moral and ethical leaders, not by force of strength but by our will to do right by humanity.
Just thought you all might be interested in a first hand account of what one country thinks of our new president, and our old one.
It pains me to read a comment like yours Will. I understand the sentiment expressed by your friend; thanks for sharing that 3DA.
Last edited by the tide on Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
heartscoffee
Lux Sweetheart
Posts: 805
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Caught in the Rain

Post by heartscoffee » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:29 pm

the Oprah effect strikes again...

User avatar
Big Will E Style
RAW Dogger
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:11 pm

I just don't think it's fair to say we're better off because a few Romans gave their thumbs up to people who already support Barry Obama.

Have you read Kite Runner or A Thousand Splendid Suns?

It seems as if many Afghani's are thankful for America every day for what we have done.

Many Iraqi's are thankful for what we have done.

Yet the Italians are against Bush......Why? What have we done in Italy? I don't think it's a fair assessment.

User avatar
Black Pope
Lux Exorcist
Posts: 3878
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: God's Right Hand
Contact:

Post by Black Pope » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:11 pm

Tide, I confess I'm the same way as BW on this one. I have traveled extensively to Europe and will continue to do so as part of my education and such. They were wildly anti-American before Bush and will continue to be until we, as a country, are just like them. All it is is pretentious, arrogant bullshit that they get away with now because many Americans are ashamed of their country. They will not be "pleased" with us until we are just like them.
I spent three weeks in Rome in February of last year. The Anti-American sentiment was so obnoxious that I was sick to my stomach...All this is from
a country that has had over 300 governments in the last 50 years in a city with one of the highest crime rates in Europe.

User avatar
3DA
Luxtopian
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:26 am
Location: Big Chicago
Contact:

Post by 3DA » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:14 pm

Big Will E Style wrote: Yet the Italians are against Bush......Why? What have we done in Italy? I don't think it's a fair assessment.
Here is a Gallup poll that may help answer your question.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111127/Europ ... ction.aspx

Here is a report from Morocco:

http://riadzany.blogspot.com/2008/11/ob ... on-in.html

The reason I choose Morocco is that I heard the king of Morocco came forward and gave a celebratory speech, welcoming Obama into the presidency - something that is unprecedented in Moroccan history. I tried to find a full transcript of the speech, but only found this:

http://www.panapress.com/freenews.asp?c ... 05/11/2008

From what I read, it seems that world is welcoming the opportunity to move forward with peaceful, intelligent, meaningful relations with the United States - something that has not been available to them for the past eight years.

My friend who wrote from Rome is off to Istanbul and promises to report on the feelings there as well.

User avatar
Big Will E Style
RAW Dogger
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:23 pm

Interesting article.

I'm going to say I agree with most of it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122584386627599251.html

And it'll make me think twice about bashing Obama's policies.

User avatar
the tide
:D
Posts: 3609
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Charlotte, US

Post by the tide » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:41 pm

Heh - they hate us because we are not like them, BP? Assuming that's true- it would be ironic as that's the same sentiment I feel/see from my more conservative friends.

Here's a sampling of some those friends expressing themselves on facebook post election:

"is ready - quit my job, default my mortgage, birth a few kids, and collect my $ from hard working americans...ahh...easy street here i come!"

" is wondering if this country will be socialist soon?"

" is pretty sure that this country is going to hell in a hand basket!! "


All of them... and I mean ALL of them - are the exact same.

User avatar
3DA
Luxtopian
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:26 am
Location: Big Chicago
Contact:

Post by 3DA » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:50 pm

Will, respectfully, I think this article is filled with highly debatable points and opinions that are easily countered.

I think that GWB would have found more people cooperative if they actually agreed with his ideas. This is not a dictatorship; it's not our job to rally around the president. If we disagree, we're allowed to say so, and say why. The president is a public servant; it's his job to listen to us, not the other way around. We are not his subjects or his employees.

I encourage you to voice strong disagreement with Obama's policies if you feel that way. I think he would encourage you as well. I actually write to my senators (Obama has been my senator for a while now) about once every three months or so: to ask questions, voice my opinion about things, and let them know how I'd like them to vote. They are representing me. I voted for them. If I don't agree with them about something I'm going to let them know, and ask for an explanation of why they did what they did. Unfailingly, from both Obama's office and Dick Durbin's office, I get pretty considered responses. Sometimes they change my opinion. Most recently, I had my opinion changed about the economic stimulus package - specifically by the letters I received from Obama and Durbin.

So, I think if GWB had ideas that people agreed with, he would meet with less opposition. And remember, Will: for his first term he had a Republican majority in both houses of Congress. He railroaded through massive amounts of legislation with relative ease; the Patriot Act is just one chunk of the tremendous changes his instituted. He also enjoyed a very high approval rating. It got him re-elected.

This reporter seems to have an awfully short memory. Him saying that he has "endured relentless attacks from the left while facing abandonment from the right..." without discussing why is a little preposterous. The right wing is who put him in office; why did they abandon him? And the left is supposed to roll over and shut up just because he's our President now? If that was the way Americans thought, Will, we'd still be a British colony.

User avatar
jOnNiE
Lux Hasselhoff
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:24 am
Location: in the bottom of the bottle

Post by jOnNiE » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:26 pm

Almost Everybody pretty much hates what GWB has done, he has the lowest approval rating since that stats have been recorded. I sympathize with the world when they give the thumbs down to GWB. He is not capable of being a President of this country, we witnessed that. Have we not learned from our mistake as being a lazy country and not participating in how we elect our gov't officials? I take partial blame because I did not vote in the 2000 election. However, every single presidential election from 2004, 2008, I will be a part of. No way in hell can we allow another GWB. I don't care if you voted for him or not, you have to admit he has fucked a lot of things up in this world. He is not going to Heaven, if there is one.

User avatar
fluffernuffer
Lux Elder
Posts: 2046
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:02 am
Location: Manchester, Michigan
Contact:

Post by fluffernuffer » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:59 pm

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."

—Ronald Reagan, 1964

User avatar
Odelay
ooodelayheehoo!
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:51 pm
Location: Yonder...
Contact:

Post by Odelay » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:05 am

Image

User avatar
Drifter
Semiholy Rambler
Posts: 6770
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:06 pm
Location: An undisclosed location... for reasons of security, and therefore... insecurity...
Contact:

Post by Drifter » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:16 am

From what I read since my last post... Why were so many of y'all beating up BP for what he said, even though I was the first one to agree with him, for the same reasons? I just do not get why he was so targeted. Anyways...
jOnNiE wrote:Have we not learned from our mistake as being a lazy country and not participating in how we elect our gov't officials?
Well, hopefully people will pay more attention during the Primaries in the following four year cycles, and we will not have to make the choice of -- as many people say -- the lesser of two evils. Last time I remembered, there were plenty of people going for the party ticket on both sides, yet only a minority of the populous were paying attention until the last second of the elections.

Just an asshat question of my own here, do you think Obama will distribute the remaining wealth of his leftover campaign money with the rest of us?

Locked