Congratulations on banning shopi

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Imhotep
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Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Fri May 30, 2014 11:39 pm

Congratulations on banning shopi, even if it's only a temporary ban.

I stopped paying Lux a few weeks ago, partly because I'm busy with other things but also because there are too many assholes playing the game.

To be fair to the Lux community, they are few in number, but too many for my sensibilities and too many for me to enjoy what is, and should be, a game.

I'm a well-experienced guy and have no problem with banter or "foul" language - when the situation arises, I can have one of the pottiest mouths you are ever likely to come across. But I consider myself a gentleman and someone who advocates fair play and respect to all those I come across.

Even those who act as assholes in their gameplay I have no problem with as, after all, it's a game and those who wish to bring out their inner Genghis Khan is fine by me. They will probably meet their comeuppance later in the game or in another game. That's just the way it is...

However, there are some players who will routinely insult/flame/trash-talk other players as a matter of course, and this is something I will not accept.

I have never, and will never, insult another player - unless they have insulted me first, of course, in which case they will feel the full venom of my tongue.

Which brings me to shopi...

I cannot understand how a player like him has lasted so long in the Lux community. He is an archetypal troll. A lot of the time he is not even playing a game, but will guest in and insult those that are playing. I checked and he has played over 14,000 games. An average player at best, he considers himself superior to all other players and, through a lack of official censure or disouragement, he has been given free reign to indulge in his anti-social behaviour.

I only played Lux for a few weeks, but I heard comment a couple of times comments along the lines that "Lux is dying". If those that are in custodianship of the game wish the game to grow, then I would advise them to curate it and pull up the weeds. I'm not talking about swearing, as I think most of those playing are adults. I'm talking about, as one of the Lux taglines says: "respect your fellow players". Respect people in life and don't be an asshole.

As it is, Lux is not an environment where a new player would feel welcome joining, playing and learning the game.

Any community that will tolerate and allow someone like shopi to participate in is not one that I want to be a part of.

Maybe there are some will think I am being thin-skinned and should ride with the waves. Perhaps they are right and perhaps, as a great man once said: "I'm getting too old for this shit".

Anyway, I haven't played for Lux for a while and am not sure if I will do so again, but I felt the urge to share my thoughts on what should be a fun game, and a worthy interpretation of the Risk boardgame.

But please, for the love of Jehovah, perma-ban shopi for the good of the game.

[For the record, I consider the following players to be minor assholes and worthy of moderator warnings about their approach to the game and attitude towards other players: rich girl, documan, centrico, polarnrd]

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Milltycoon
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Milltycoon » Sat May 31, 2014 9:15 am

You should play more, Imtohep.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Rich Girl » Sat May 31, 2014 9:33 am

i just play agressive sometime but im not an asshole!

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Deep Blue » Sat May 31, 2014 11:33 am

Nice post Imhotep,

It is just a game. I totally agree. I don't agree with the foul language. Calling someone an cocksucker has nothing to do with the game and should not be tolerated. Neither does asshole.
You can say lot of things about shopi, but at least most of the time his moves make sens in some sort of wicked sick psycho way.

Welcome to the forums

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Imhotep
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Sat May 31, 2014 12:38 pm

Ha, I posted this at 4 a.m. after coming home after a night of heavy drinking. In the cold of day I agree with what I wrote, though...

As I stated, I will only ever insult those that have insulted me first and I feel it's fair play to call out an asshole as an asshole. shopi is undoubtedly a massive asshole and I have zero respect for him as a human being.

I try and lead a Zen existence (when not drinking heavily, of course!) and so it's not good for the soul to be in situations where one encounters such assholery that one is left feeling nothing but utter contempt for another person. In such situations it's best to walk away, which is what I'm doing.

I appreciate Lux by its very nature can be a highly competitive hothouse and taking out your rivals, sometimes mercilessly, is what the game is all about. But there are lines that should not be crossed, not just in Lux but in life. Some players, however, cross the line and one - shopi - has positioned himself so far over the line that he cannot even see it. I know I am not the only one that shares this opinion of this player.

@Deep Blue: calling someone a cocksucker is both using foul language and insulting. I have no problem with the former part and every problem with the latter part.

@Rich Girl: as mentioned, I have no problem with aggressive play but you are rude to other players. Needlessly, IMHO(tep).

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paranoiarodeo
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat May 31, 2014 5:43 pm

(I must say that I find myself agreeing with more than most of Imhotep's original post.)

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Imhotep
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:45 pm

So, to conclude, these are the points I have wanted to make:

1) Respect your fellow Luxers. It's a game, an idle pastime. Have fun and don't spoil the fun of others. The anonymity and distance of the internet, by its very nature, brings enablement and succour to those who would troll the landscape if given license to do so. As the saying goes: "on the internet no-one knows if you're a dog; everyone knows if you're a jackass".

2) Be more tolerant of new players. Playing the game I did at times see what I presumed to be green players incur the scorn of some other players if they didn't make the move with the statistically best outcome.

Personally, I quite enjoy having some raw recruits scattered into the mix. They are, of course, generally easier to eliminate than the grognards and the unpredictability they bring to the table keeps the game fresh and interesting.

So, in Lux as in life, remember that small acorns can grow into giant oaks if they are not squished as saplings by some careless tread.

To be fair, I wasn't a completely new player to the online multiplayer Risk concept as I used to play an online iteration a few years back called Final Conquest. Since it was completely free-to-play and unregulated it could be quite anarchic and, at times, fairly fruity.

Well, my time for play is short these days and so I won't be Luxing for the time being - a backlog of pyramids to build...

But one day, when the sands of time have swept the lands and ingrained the beard of Ramesses, Imhotep will return...

By the Staff of Ra!!!

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Baden
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:09 pm

No idea what happened in detail. I should know shopi better than most of you (check the vs.stats). A bad loser with no humor at all and not very communicative. Maybe he overreacted.

I know that he is basically a good sports.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Kude » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:16 pm

Baden wrote: A bad loser
Baden wrote:a good sport
:smt017

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Baden
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:21 pm

A contradiction I admit. But this person has two characters. Ugly in the game perhaps but charming privately as I witnessed.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:33 pm

Baden wrote:I should know shopi better than most of you (check the vs.stats).
In the last half year, shopi has won 131 of 788 six human games; 16.62%; less than one-sixth.

(He ranks 79th outta 163 registrations with 50 or more six human games in the last six months; 53rd percentile.)

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Baden
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:58 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:...
In the last half year, shopi has won 131 of 788 six human games; 16.62%; less than one-sixth...
In the "last half year" I did not watch the scene. I talk about the early days.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:01 pm

So? Generally, good players get better over time, not worse.

(Maybe the early days weren't as competitive as old players like to believe.)

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Baden
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:09 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:So? Generally, good players get better over time, not worse.

(Maybe the early days weren't as competitive as old players like to believe.)
Shopi was good in his 5,5,5 classic and hard to beat. But possibly he has only average skills overall.

Para, I don't "like to believe" anything. Not in the game and even less in real life.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:11 pm

∞ paranoiarodeo shrugs ∞

(5,5,5 classic was not a good test of skill; a broken game.)

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Baden
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:15 pm

"Sic transit...": HOF 2006 - SHOPI

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Montjoie ! » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:19 pm

I sometimes hate Shopi's guts as much as the next guy, but I disagree with his banning. Banning should not be based on how much we like or dislike a player or his/her playing. Banning should not even be based on a very subjective view of "what is best for the community". Banning should be based only on objective legal issues of the real world. For everything else, I would take a libertarian view that the Lux community is made of players who are overall mature enough to know what is best for them individually: if I don't want to play in a room where Shopi is present, I go to another room. If I don't want to hear his rants (encore que, je dois le reconnaître, il ecrivait dans un francais correct) I can mute him. If I really want to get rid of him as far as *I* am concerned, I can step up, host rooms and ban him form my own rooms.
The rationale that Shopi is or is not a good player is totally irrelevant: are top players given more rights than the rank and file ones like me? Of course not.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by nimrod7 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:33 pm

Lux has online rules. Some people choose to break them and therefore get their hand slapped for a little while.

http://sillysoft.net/wiki/?Lux%20Rules

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:47 pm

Montjoie ! wrote:The rationale that Shopi is or is not a good player is totally irrelevant: are top players given more rights than the rank and file ones like me? Of course not.
It's relevant in large part 'cause shopi resorts to abusive language and childish insults as soon as anyone attacks him in any way whatsoever. Indeed, it's quite relevant to remind everyone that there is no basis in reality for shopi's constant degradation of other players, and that he is "writing checks with his mouth that his body can't cash." Furthermore: occasional taunts and insults are one thing; denouncing all opponents as idiots, morons, whiners, and worse for objectively fair moves is another; and following up those insults with vindictive play is yet another thing entirely. shopi's suspension was well earned and long overdue. I believe more players these days ought to be taking a long, hard look at how they behave towards other players, and how others behave toward them in return. Lux may be made of many good and decent folks, but there remains, and always will remain, a significant minority of selfish board flipping assholes and cheaters that will ruin the fun for everyone if ignored for too long.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Montjoie ! » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:51 pm

Nimrod7 wrote:Lux has online rules. Some people choose to break them and therefore get their hand slapped for a little while.

http://sillysoft.net/wiki/?Lux%20Rules
Indeed that is correct Nimrod, but then I have issues with these very rules, or actually with how they are enforced . More on that later in an unsolicited proposal on mods', room owners' and individual players' responsibilities. There will be no rant, but a recognition of the very difficult job that mods do. Basically I would switch the burden of action on room hosts, with mods having a less universal but better defined and manageable role (and them being compensated as such by SillySoft, since we are dreaming...). I'll post that soon.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Montjoie ! » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:59 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:
Montjoie ! wrote:The rationale that Shopi is or is not a good player is totally irrelevant: are top players given more rights than the rank and file ones like me? Of course not.
It's relevant in large part 'cause shopi resorts to abusive language and childish insults as soon as anyone attacks him in any way whatsoever.
I do not disagree Para, but my point is I do not have to endure such rants from him if I don't want, all I have to do is invoke the power of the Mute command.

His retaliating, I agree, is more of a problem. My general philosophy here is that room hosts have all powers to ban or not whoever they please for whatever reason. I would not extend such powers to Mods, who I see as referees more than actors. If a Mod is also hosting rooms, then this Mod can of course ban whoever for whatever, but as a host on his/her rooms, not as a mod on all rooms. My 2 cents.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Baden » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:12 pm

I disagree. A mod is a kind of supervisor. That is common sense and useful. And consider: There are abusive hosts as well.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:30 pm

Montjoie ! wrote:I do not disagree Para, but my point is I do not have to endure such rants from him if I don't want, all I have to do is invoke the power of the Mute command.
Then you're missing the point of why shopi was suspended; it wasn't for "spoken words."

Montjoie ! wrote:My general philosophy here is that room hosts have all powers to ban or not whoever they please for whatever reason.
You would be mistaken. Public hosts have never nor will have carte blanche to ban "whomever they please for whatever reason." Just as there are bad apples amongst players, there are amongst hosts too, and Lux has a long history of hosts abusing their powers and responsibilities. Some have used their rooms to conceal the fact that they are playing multiple accounts at once or teaming with friends from a shared physical location. Some have egregiously manipulated game settings in order to exploit loopholes in rankings system. Some have dishonestly restarted games on a regular basis in order to protect their statistical record and inflate their rankings; or excluded specific opponents for similar reasons. In my opinion, strict libertarian philosophies are simply impractical in semi-anonymous online gaming communities. There are far too many bad actors that will run amok without a clear code of conduct that is both rigorously and transparently enforced.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Montjoie ! » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:31 pm

Well here is my short and unsolicited proposal on who can ban who and how. I do not speak out of experience of being Mod, so forgive me if I am completely wrong here.

1) Mods are doing a very difficult job.
Mods are asked to exercise quasi-divine powers without the benefits of divine infallibility or divine intemporality: i.e., mods have to make a lot of calls the best they can to enforce the Lux rules that Nimrod posted above, and it takes them a lot of time and aggravation. For their benefit I would delegate their most common banning responsibilities to room hosts (with Mods retaining full banning powers to be used in case of an emergency as described below).

2) Hosts should be responsible for their room and decide on their own sub-rules.
Ideally, the primary responsible party to maintain peace in the rooms are the room hosts themselves. They still have to obey the fundamental Lux rules (i.e., it is not acceptable that a host bans, says, all redheads or all Manchester United fans just because the mods doesn't like this or that group), but they have a large latitude in how they enforce specific rules like Bots First or Acceptable Level of Profanity or How Long Is Teaming Acceptable etc etc... Hosts can ban whoever for whatever, as long as the main Lux Rules are followed.

3) Mods are in overall control of Room Hosts.
Mods still have power to ban, but they primarily address that with the Host. They could potentially ban a host from hosting if Lux rules are not followed. They can override a host decision on an individual player - the player can appeal to the Mod. But Mods have to talk to the room host. This adds a modest but real level of check and balance of Hosts' and Mods' powers.
Mods retain all powers to ban an individual player (or a Host) in case of a very serious violation of Lux rules or violation of real world laws: we will never have Lux rooms with illegal activity taking place. As a matter of fact Mods could get the IP of players and refer them to real world authorities.

4) Mods should be - even if symbolically - compensated by Sillysoft.
It is very difficult for me to argue with an individual Mod, since they are individual doing all the work for me, but I have no problem arguing with a company. Mods would ideally exercise their mods powers in loco Sillysoft, not as individuals. They should receive compensation, even if only a couple of hundreds bucks a year, to i) help in the maintenance of their servers since many Mods, in particular one, are also serious hosts, and ii) to offer their spouse/partners/children a couple of dinners a year on behalf of all of us in appreciation for luxing their life away for the benefit of the entire Lux community. To fund this, I suggest a yearly fee for players to be able to play online. A $10 or$20 /year fee to play on line is perfectly acceptable to me. Of all the games I bought, Lux Delux offers by far the best performance/price ratio. A solid base of 200 to 300 players would funds this effort at $10 to $20 /year.

My 2 cents (or my $10 to $20 'year actually).

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paranoiarodeo
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by paranoiarodeo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:48 pm

Interesting ideas, Montjoie. Worth more serious discussion at some point.

(Thanks for taking time to gather substantial thoughts and post them.)

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Imhotep
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:09 pm

Baden wrote:A contradiction I admit. But this person has two characters. Ugly in the game perhaps but charming privately as I witnessed.
Some said the same about Ted Bundy, Adolf Hitler, Piers Morgan and many other of history's greatest monsters...

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Kude
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Kude » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:49 pm

ok, look, shopi's a dick, but he's no Ted Bundy...

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Imhotep
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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:09 pm

kude wrote:ok, look, shopi's a dick, but he's no Ted Bundy...
It's telling that you raised no objection to the comparisons with Hitler and Morgan. "He's not as bad as Ted Bundy" is faint praise...

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by WhirlPlaid » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:29 am

Shopi and I get along fairly well. Yes, I have seen him play in a manner that I directly disagree with. Yes, I have seen him insult people needlessly. I, after playing against him now for over seven years have learned to employ this tactic: I love SHOPI! His play is genius, his comments are insightful. He is fun to be around. He is skilled, intelligent and worldly. When I play him, I heap excessive amounts of praise on him, and his Lux playing brilliance. The result.... he doesn't insult me, he doesn't suicide me, and more often than not I win. Its fun, next time you are being berated by a player, throw sugar at them. Their anger is defused by your kindness and more often than not, more fun is had by all.

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Re: Congratulations on banning shopi

Post by Imhotep » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:08 pm

WhirlPlaid wrote:Its fun, next time you are being berated by a player, throw sugar at them.
Who are you? Jesus?

I'd rather stick a cactus up my bottom than pander to some [REDACTED]'s ego.

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